1 2 Previous Next 16 Replies Latest reply on Apr 23, 2010 10:20 AM by chcsep

    Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8

    chcsep

      Summary

      Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8

      Description of the issue

      We just upgraded from Filemaker Pro 8 to FMP 11, and many of our layouts, especially letters, are no longer formatting properly. The line height is much shorter, making carefully-placed paragraphs all out of line. This is happening for all my databases, which makes me think it's a universal setting. Edit2: I have to manually change all my text boxes to set the line spacing to 1.2 lines in FMP11 in order to match the way they appeared in FMP8 Any ideas if there's a global fix, or if this is a bug. I really don't want to have to fix all of the layouts in all of my databases (some of which are only used a couple of times per year); we also might not upgrade our other users to FMP 11 if they will encounter this problem. Thanks in advance. Edit: using OS X 10.5.8, FMP v 11.0v1

        • 1. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
          5104919325FTN

          Neither, neither, neither use inch nor cm but only pixels* to position objects and edit line spacing (and never line**).

           

          Always set your margins to (0,0,0,0). If not, your print results will be for each printer different*** (except for the "full page-labels layouts" à la Avery Company****).

           

          I know, it's a little bit rude, but necessary.

           

           

           

           

          Explanations / Secret infos (but don't tell anybody, that I was the one, who told you)

          *  Because inch and cm are imprecise values, rounded from the pixel.

          Internally, FM (seems to) works with the old and well known 72 pixel per inch resolution of monitors (which I don't really need to introduce to you, do I?)

           

          **  Line is relative.

          Relative to the font size of course.

          But also relative to the bounding box of the font (simply the smallest box that encloses all the characters), the ones, who were working with PostScript will remember, html-specialists know the bbox ... For the others, a link, which helps to understand, I hope ...

          This was for example the reason for the vertical "sliding" of one pixel with some old PostScript fonts (using FM < 7) between a "normal" font and the same after "bolding". The two fonts didn't have the same bounding box values.

          But at least also relative to the font baseline and the way the operating systems go on with this value ... In interaction with the software (here FM and the text baseline of the field -- as shown in the Inspector / Appearance / Object).

          I think (but of course, I'm not sure, it's only a supposition), this is here the reason of your observation.

           

          ***  Because FileMaker uses then the standard margin values of the printer driver. Why? To avoid having some objects non printed on the side.

          The problem: each printer driver have different values ...

           

          ****  There, the margins are predefined for each different label, yo it's okay (and obligatory) to let them the way the assistent done.

          • 2. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
            5104919325FTN

            I just added some info on my previous text.

             

            If someone from the FileMaker Inc. staff notices, that I'm telling some erroneous stuff, please don't hesitate to correct me (and all of us here will be very grateful to know the thruth).

             

            I think, this is important enough to understand how FileMaker works, when we want to deliver some well designed (print)-layouts ...

             

            So, Modman or TSGal, if you can send this to the ones, who are concerned :-)

            • 3. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
              chcsep

              Hi Fabricker,

               

              I just type text in a text box and position the text boxes in the WYSIWYG layout editor (not sure if there is any other type), then I align the boxes so that the text lines up.

               

              All of a sudden, the line spacing on the Arial font is different across the system, so that the paragraph doesn't take as much vertical space as before. The text boxes are still the same size.

              • 4. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                TSGal

                chcsep:

                 

                Thank you for your post.

                 

                One of our Testers who saw this post has asked me to get a file from you so he can open it in FileMaker Pro 11 and see what is causing the problem.  I have sent you a private message (top of this page - right side - envelope icon just below the blue horizontal bar) with instructions where to send the file.

                 

                TSGal

                FileMaker, Inc.

                • 5. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                  WoodApple

                  Ever try to "zoom" in on a layout to get stuff aligned the way you want?

                   

                  Does not work. Try it and then switch back to 100% zoom. Funky behavior. (large blocks of text seem to be effected more)

                  • 6. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                    TSGal

                    WoodApple:

                     

                    Thank you for your post.

                     

                    Can you provide an example?  I frequently position objects at 400%.  When I return to 100%, everything looks fine.

                     

                    What version of FileMaker Pro are you using?  Are you running under Windows or Mac OS?  What version of the OS?  I would like to replicate the problem here.  I have also sent you a private message with instructions where to send a sample file.

                     

                    TSGal

                    FileMaker, Inc.

                    • 7. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                      chcsep

                      (1) With respect, I would appreciate it if this thread were not hijacked by WoodApple and moderator TSGal. My problem has still not been resolved and the problem described in that post belongs in a new thread with its own subject line.

                       

                      (2) I have changed the title of my original post to better reflect the problem.

                       

                      The following two sets of settings look the same:

                      - Viewed in FMP8, a layout with a paragraph of Helvetica, size 10 text with line spacing of 1.0

                      - Viewed in FMP11, a layout with a paragraph of Helvetica, size 10 text with line spacing of 1.2

                       

                      Therefore, the two versions of the program are not inter-operable. If I create a file in FMP8, it will not appear the same in FMP11 unless I manually change the line spacing of all the paragraphs.

                       

                      If I change the line spacing of all the paragraphs in FMP11, the parargaphs will all be very spread out if I re-open the file in FMP8.

                       

                      This is very bad behaviour, because it means that all my databases, plus my many backups and old databases, will not work properly. I will be recommending that we not deploy FMP11 across our organization, but that we instead stay with FMP8.

                       

                      ...unless anyone has a solution to this problem.

                      • 8. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                        5104919325FTN

                        chcsep wrote:

                        (2) I have changed the title of my original post to better reflect the problem.

                         

                        The following two sets of settings look the same:

                        - Viewed in FMP8, a layout with a paragraph of Helvetica, size 10 text with line spacing of 1.0

                        - Viewed in FMP11, a layout with a paragraph of Helvetica, size 10 text with line spacing of 1.2

                         

                        ...unless anyone has a solution to this problem.


                        Ääääh.

                        Did you understood my first reply, you got on this thread?

                         

                        I suggested you to change the line spacing values in pixel instead of lines -- I think it's the only way to get stable results.

                         

                        To have it easier, double a typical field to have a sample and change the "line" in "px" and then the value to 13, or 14, or 15 or 16 ... Until you got the same line spacing as in the original.

                         

                        Then reopen the database with the other FileMaker and tell me, if the "pixel"-field has changed his line spacing.


                        • 9. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                          chcsep

                          Hi Fabricker,

                           

                          Thank you, I understand what you're saying now that I better realize the source of the problem.

                           

                          Your suggestion works as a workaround, but the underlying bug is still there, and I hope that the FilMaker programmers fix it.

                           

                          FileMaker, whether you are in FMP11 or FMP8, defaults to spacing by line, and unless you manually change it to pixel every time you create a new layout (and doing this is not intuitive or convenient), this bug will keep coming back again and again and again.

                           

                          In addition, this workaround is not very convenient: when I change from line spacing to pixel spacing in the inspector, it converts incorrectly. If I have 1.2 lines in size 10 font, it converts it to 19 pixels (when I want 12 pixels). This causes my text boxes get get bigger and overlap, and they don't get smaller again when I correct the line spacing. So a workaround of the workaround I have to change the line spacing to 0.75, then change to pixel spacing so that it converts to 12 pixels.

                           

                          This is all very frustrating, and to be honest it would be much easier for me to just stick with FMP8 than to have to update all my layouts. I would rather that this problem be fixed than have to stay with FMP8, which will soon not be supported.

                          • 10. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                            5104919325FTN

                            chcsep wrote:
                            Your suggestion works as a workaround, but the underlying bug is still there, and I hope that the FilMaker programmers fix it.

                            FileMaker, whether you are in FMP11 or FMP8, defaults to spacing by line, and unless you manually change it to pixel every time you create a new layout (and doing this is not intuitive or convenient), this bug will keep coming back again and again and again.

                            In addition, this workaround is not very convenient: when I change from line spacing to pixel spacing in the inspector, it converts incorrectly. If I have 1.2 lines in size 10 font, it converts it to 19 pixels (when I want 12 pixels). This causes my text boxes get get bigger and overlap, and they don't get smaller again when I correct the line spacing. So a workaround of the workaround I have to change the line spacing to 0.75, then change to pixel spacing so that it converts to 12 pixels.

                            This is all very frustrating, and to be honest it would be much easier for me to just stick with FMP8 than to have to update all my layouts. I would rather that this problem be fixed than have to stay with FMP8, which will soon not be supported.


                            Well, to tell you the truth, I don't think, that my method how to use FileMaker layout capabilities is a workaround.

                            I think, this is an adequate way of doing things well, if you want to work accurate. FileMaker internal value is the pixel (or pixel-based). Neither inch, nor cm, and of course not line.

                             

                            Of course, the first intuitive impression and the way it works let you believe, this is easy.

                            But some day, if you want to do it well an precisely, you have to forget about (pseudo) "standard" (which is inch & line in America and cm & line in Europe), and allways work with pixel.

                             

                            This was the reason of my question on the last message: If you use pixels. Are the layouts stable over the FileMaker versions on your layout or not?

                             

                            If you want to do some precise and accurate work, you have to use the rigt tool (I know, nobody tells about it in the manual).

                            I wouldn't use an axt to cut the Sunday Roastbeef (okay, I tried, but my girl friend and her parents looked somehow confused, so I promised to never do it again, chainsaw wouldn't be an issue too, I presume).

                            I prefer to always work with pixel. It secure (but of course less intuitive and needs a lot of time).


                            • 11. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                              mrvodka

                               


                              fabricker wrote:

                              I prefer to always work with pixel.


                               

                               

                              Indeed I wish this were a setting that we could set as a default for the application or at least the file.

                              In addition, its rather easy to hit the button ( by mistake ) to cycle through the types on both the Object Info Pallette and now even more so on the Inspector.

                               

                               

                              P.S. Yes I have put this in the suggestion box.

                               

                               

                              • 12. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                                chcsep

                                Fabricker: Yes, it does work when you set pixels, but I don't think you get my point, no matter how many times I try to explain it.

                                 

                                The line spacing by default is at a certain spacing. It doesn't matter if it's calculated in pixels or lines, I don't specify anything because what I see in the layout editor is what I want it to look like. When I open the database in FMP11, it should be able to recognize that the user didn't change the line spacing from the default, therefore it should present the information in the same way as it was presented in FMP8.

                                 

                                By analogy, imagine you typed your letters in MS Word 2010, then when you open your letters in MS Word 2012 it was displayed in landscape instead of portrait because MS Word 2012 decides that files are by default in landscape. Then you go on the forums and someone tells you "when you save your letters you have to specify portrait." But portrait is the default style when I created the letter, and I didn't bother to specify it because the program gave the impression that this setting was already specified (why else would it display that way?). Now am I supposed to go back to all my correspondence and change every single letter I ever wrote?

                                 

                                This is why what you suggest is a workaround, and the real solution is to correct the program.

                                 

                                Mr. Vodka: thanks.

                                • 13. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                                  5104919325FTN

                                  mr_vodka wrote:

                                  fabricker wrote:

                                  I prefer to always work with pixel.


                                  Indeed I wish this were a setting that we could set as a default for the application or at least the file.

                                  In addition, its rather easy to hit the button ( by mistake ) to cycle through the types on both the Object Info Pallette and now even more so on the Inspector.

                                  P.S. Yes I have put this in the suggestion box.


                                  Good idea, I will do it too.

                                   

                                  And I appreciate the feedback / corroboration.

                                   

                                  A serious question: Would it be a good idea, or ... Is anybody interested in finding a guide* in the download area from FileMaker in English/French/German?

                                  A sample file and a step by step guide?

                                   

                                  Ground:

                                  Also when if FileMaker will reintroduce the "vertical spacing of page @the body end" on the next release, it is nicer (and more secure) to have a well formed layout.

                                  A well formed layout is harmonious, calm, and invite more to read than an other.

                                   

                                  Or should I invest my time in other things?

                                   

                                  * "Print layouts with FileMaker, a typografical approach" or

                                  "FileMaker and designers, a cyclothymical relationship" or

                                  "FileMaker, pixels and grid pattern, not a misalliance, a curable dissonance"



                                  • 14. Re: Default line spacing different in FMP11 than FMP8
                                    5104919325FTN

                                    Yes, yes, I agree with you: If someone sets a standard, why change it after years?

                                    And why don't tell it?

                                     

                                    I think, this has to do with the changing definitions (operating system change all the time) and tools to developpe a software.

                                    But then, why so quiet, why not tell "because of the changing definition of operating systems, fonts and vulcanic ashes, a line is not more the same line"?

                                     

                                    It's more a philosophical point. What is a standard good for? In the old Macintosh way of life, a lot of things were going automatically.

                                     

                                    You have a printer? The margins are set as standard automatically with the driver values. No need to do anything.

                                    So you will never have lost chars on the sides.

                                    You let your font grow, the line spacing goes automatically with it, you don't need to do anything, it's quick and easy.

                                    The problem: You change the printer, the printing area is moving with the new values from the new driver.

                                    The problem: You change the OS, and you have to change each field from each layout, because the line spacing have changed.

                                     

                                    It's always dangerous to set on the "standard". Because sometimes, not even FileMaker can do something against it, if the system it's based on, changes.

                                     

                                    The fault, is to let everyone believe, that a "standard" could be "secure" (hahaha <- weak laughing!).

                                    And not to tell, if not ...

                                     

                                    So I agree with you, it is to be corrected, a standard is a standard and has to be kept a standard, as far and as long as possible.

                                     

                                    But my suggestion is neither a suggestion nor a workaround, it's simply nothing less and nothing more than using one of the given tools, a possibility like others, and which imho I think to be more secure and appropriate. This security, a standard can never garantee (and you have absolut no control on it).

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