1) Twice within one week, TSGal has responded to a bug post saying that it was already reported to FMI (not by someone on this forum) and their development people already knew. If FMI knows about it, why don't they post it in the Bug List? Why must they wait until someone, after spending many hours in frustration and searching, posts for help ... only to be told FMI already knows. And why are people charged for technical calls when FMI already knows about a bug (some sitting there for years unfixed)?
2) The Known Bugs thread is now 10 pages long. Even if I know about a bug, I waste a lot of time trying to find the specific post because there is no index to it and now the Knowledge Base has eliminated search results from this forum. Before, we might have gotten 6,000 results from here ... now there are none.
An example: There is very serious import bug (spontaneous mapping of incorrect fields) and it has been there for years (since vs. 7). But when I search Knowledge Base for 'import map', I find 4 pages but nothing on this issue.
What good does it do to have a bug list here if it can't be found when someone searches knowledge base? What good is a Bug List if someone has to read page by page to try to find if/where the information exists? What good is a Report a Bug forum if it only holds bugs reported here and doesn't include bugs they already know about?
It's like this ... FMI might admit that there is a bug, but only when caught (publicly here) otherwise they will remain silent and keep the information private. That hurts us all a great deal.
I totally agree with you.
You can also be sure, that most of the german users (who didn't all already discover this bug-report) would agree too -- the community of power-users and developers is very close there (is "close"right? I mean, they know each other good and speak a lot together) and angry too.
I'm Tech Member, I get a monthly mailing, telling me how cool FileMaker ist, and which new cheap special offer I can buy, or which tiny database I can download.
But ... I would like to get an actual bug-report too (or instead).
A (growing) list of Bugs.
Which bugs are discovered (so, I wouldn't loose time, trying to understand a problem, or even *create* a problem, doing something, what obviously doesn't work).
Which bugs are clearly identified.
Which are hard to repair.
Which are easy to repair.
And will be repaired on the next update.
When will occure the next update.
Because I notice, that TSGal (and Micheal Valentin in Germany) give the information to the developement (and thanks for it, thumb up), but ... Never get an answer.
I think, you see, what I mean ...
Sorry, but I don't understand the last sentence.
Fact is, that I only have a few customers (big projects "work in progress", developping on the fly, always evoluating) and I always discuss with them the different bugs and the solutions.
We trust each other.
Some bugs from me, because of inatention ...
Me: "Oh, sorry, my mistake, i wrote 11 unstead of 12, good that you noticed it so quick!"
Customer: "Nevermind, we all do mistakes. When can you fix it? Is it complicated or not?"
Some bugs from me, because of bad idea and wrong structure. Well, those I discover them myself, before the customer even see the solution, because nothing even works from what I wanted the database would do :-P
Some bugs from me, because I had to do so quick, I didn't test all cases ...
Me: "Oh sorry, this I didn't had time to test that point, thanks for this quick feedback!"
Cutsomer: "Nevermind buddy, you know, so I tested it exactly the way *we* are workin'. By the important thing is: when can you fix it? Is it a big work or a quick action?"
Some bugs from me and the customer, because I didn't imagine (underestimated) the capability of the customer to use my software on the wrong way ...
Me: "But, huh, how did you got this on the screen? Oooooh, I see, but, but, it's crazy, why are you doing such things? ... Ah. Okay, I understand. Not bad. Very imaginative! Well, I will present the layout on a different way, so you will go on without the possibility doing such crazy things!"
Customer: "Oh, okay, the software goes *this* way, I didn't get it 'till now. And thank you for explaining. But ... If you could put the thinks on (our) different way? Because, we work like we work, and we will surely do it in the future the same, I mean, not that *your* way ... Well, the question is: When can you fix it?"
Some bugs, that aren't bugs but only a misunderstood ...
Me: "Okay, I rebuild it on a different way, now I understand better, obviously, this part of the software is useless."
Customer: "Well, nice try, but nevermind, I'm glad, you got it now. I know, it's a kind of special ... And maybe, you can use this part on an other place. Anyway ... When can we have the next presentation?"
Some bugs are no bugs, but only limitation ...
Me: "No, at home, you can not connect the database (I mean, the server), if you are not connected on the internet."
Customer: "Oh really?"
Some bugs are bugs of FileMaker, but I try to explain it as a ... *limitation*
Me: "No, you can not change the fontsize nor the value of the interline on your letter without to have the risk cutted lines from one page to the other."
Me: "Yes, please, before copying my runtime, just take a look at the trialversion of FileMaker 11 on Windows, it's pretty cool" ... And installs the c++2008 Library for me :-)
I do very short iterations, so this is not a problem.
I work very transparent. Shaming me for my mistakes, yelling like Tarzan, when I resolve a complicated issue on their place, so everybody can notice, how happy I am and how difficult this was ;-)
There is quite no problem with the fact of talking to my customers and always tell them how far I am with a problem.
And this is, that I would like to have from FileMaker. Just to trust better each other.
Does this answer your question?
Well, maybe ...
1) Answer more quickly (as at leasta form of respect). Take the case of the FileMaker runtime problem with Windows.
I spoke with Dominique Goupil about it, with TSGal and his german pendant, a few people were analyzing this.
We estimated the work, that is to do to solve it, made propositions ... I gave feedback on the knowledge base ...
2) Tell the developers about bad bug (again, this runtime problem).
I don't speak about "public". I was thinking, each Tech Member (or FBA), should be aware of certain things.
This runtime story for example. Avoiding problems with the customers.
Or the fact, that FM11 cuts textlines again, if you print on more than one page, I need hardly such informations before I have to get the problem myself.
Why let thousands of developers getting a problem, loose time?
German people call this "let the people run into the open knife".
How many hours lost?
What a waste of resources!
And I'm not speaking about money, but about time, or meaning of life, or quality of life ... I would prefer having some good time with my girlfriend, than searching for problems other are aware of, but nobody knows about it ...
It's really frustrating.
I upgraded to filemaker 8.0 when it came out. I spent 3 months tiring to figure out why all the indexing in all my files slowly became corrupt. Finds stop working as expected, reports started to be wrong, I even rewrote several files and it made no difference. During this time I continuously searched for this type of problem and found nothing. (finally a heard a couple rumors that this was reported on technet of which I am not a member). When the first revision came out, there was a minor note that said this may be an issue (sorry I don't recall exact wording, but it was rather vague, the revision did fix the issue).
This has been my experience with most bugs in filemaker, If they admit there is one, it is because they already have a fix. This forum has changed this a little, but only a little. We still don't know when/if bugs will be fixed and if it wasn't reported here, you can be sure filemaker won't post it themselves (again, not unless there is a fix)
I guess my point is, Filemaker historically has not made bugs public, even ones that could be disastrous. It has been up to developers to try to find them and work around them if possible, some like the indexing issue I mentioned or the current issues with portals on windows in fm11 have no work around and render the software useless.
(...and yes there is a lot that can be done with the design to improve performance, and not every issue anyone has is a bug, but there are plenty of real bugs to worry about)
Well, the forum is the first place to ask
1) Am I doing a mistake, or is this a bug ? Is this a false alarm, or am I just stupid?
I don't like such titles like "BIG BUG!!! FILEMAKER IS DOING BAD!!!".
So I was thinking, this is a good place, to avoid the cases we have written about, loosing time, feeling bad etc ...
2) In the conversation beetween more people from all around the world (I love this point), I can maybe understand my problem.
Maybe it's not a bug and I will get a solution.
Or maybe, finally, we find, here is a bug!
3) With so much people trying to resolve or at least to isolate the problem, FileMaker has a competent "tool" to help solving the problem, and this for free.
4) "La moindre des choses" would to show some respect on those people for it and react.
Maybe publish a digest of the bugs,
Like virus-detection programm does about virusses (what is the plural of virus?).
Quality: "bad", "very bad", "harmless as a mosquito bite", "duck and cover", "run, just run"
Solution: "patch coming soon", "next update", "workaround coming soon", "see at the end of this message for a workaround", "we are at it", "we are all drunk, forget it", "we all quit for SAP, sorry"
Oh you must be kidding ... hardware, software, firmware… all computer companies put out patches and lists of known bugs, fixes and work arounds… this is industry standard stuff. Gee Wiz… just Google “any_software_company list of bugs” <- replace any_software_company with your favorite and a big list will appear on their own website. Here are just a few (do a bit of work yourself and perform your own search):
List of fixes:
How about some open bug lists:
... and even Servoy. But if I am using vs. 10 and want to find out why my pop-ups won't work in header, can I find it? No, because FMI won't publish their list of bugs or bug fixes. And worse still, it is carried forward into vs. 11 without even apology to their customers. MAC, PC, Linux, all Operating systems release patches, fixes, and enhancements for BUGS.
FileMaker is still in the denial phase of the grieving process! Yes FileMaker has a ton of big bad bugs, they just prefer to hide them if possible. So, it is okay for us to stumble upon bugs and they can be posted in a BUG forum (named by FMI) and FMI can acknowledge them as bugs but it is wrong for FMI to post bugs (THEY have discovered elsewhere) on this same forum or link to them from Knowledge Base (like they were linked to just a few weeks ago)?
Is it unreasonable for us to expect FMI to make such information searchable instead of asking a customer (even if you tack special label of ‘community leader’ on them) to keep up on a bug thread which is now 10 pages long and growing? It has increased by 3 pages just since vs. 11 came out!! Soon it will be 25-100 pages long.
And it is okay to have a product out 7 months without an Updater when there are known SEVERE bugs (reported when vs. 10 first came out) in it and customers are leaving FMI in swarms? Many customers still own vs. 10 and cannot upgrade and they can’t find information!! FMI will not even verify that the bugs will be fixed in the next version! We cannot plan our designs or we very-likely will need to drop back a version (or two) once we become aware of these issues ... and all because FMI (and FMI employees such as you) won't even take our needs seriously.
FileMaker is touted to be rapid development but it isn’t rapid at all when we all must spend thousands of hours scouring all forums for bug information, implementing work-arounds for bugs because we aren’t told when (or if ever) they will be fixed, removing those work-arounds once fixed (if ever) in future version (which then breaks our work-arounds). And now we must also waste time trying to get FMI to see things from our point of view and off-set the likes of you.
If FileMaker would FIX their bugs, they wouldn’t be embarrassed about them and their jobs would be much easier because their bug list would be minimal. They can’t decide what to fix? How about fixing most of them (if not all) and not just a few chosen ones? Why not ask your customers instead of giving blanket responses when you have absolutely no intention of following up. Quit releasing versions faster than you can test them; quit sliding money into your own pockets and for once focus on your customers. Remember your customers?
Now back to why I started this post ... it was to ask serious questions so let's bring it up again:
Why would FMI start a Report a Bug forum if it’s not okay to report a bug or even acknowledge it? And if they allow a bug forum, why can't their post bugs THEY discover to it as well? And if they are going to allow a Bug Forum, why not make it searchable for their customers? You can side-track all you want but we all know the truth here ... you are very obvious ... go back to where you live - 5201 Patrick Henry Drive Santa Clara, CA 95054 at FileMaker.
Also do you share all your bugs that you have with your customers that you are aware of within the database but not through any limitation/bugs from FileMaker?
Yes I do let my customers know about bugs. It is called disclosure and integrity. But instead I'll stay up 24/7 to get them fixed. That is called accountability.
My anger is blinding me? It has taken a long time to come to this stance and I am far from alone. I see that disagreeing with you is attacking, is it? If that is what you believe, so be it. I posted and asked two very serious and logical questions. It is you who has decided that you must blindly 1) put the blame back on customers for shoddy work, 2) minimize the bugs we are experiencing, justify, blame and sidetrack from the issues of my question. You say I just complain? I asked two questions, for goodness sakes which immediately received several kudos. Has YOUR post received kudos yet? Maybe you should listen more than just talk.
The information should be placed on Tech Info? Hmmm, so customers should have to pay to find out about bugs? FMI continues to pull information away from regular customers and hide it behind the veil of paying for Tech Info just to find out what should be known to everyone. Even people who don't own FileMaker yet should be allowed to see the issues. I am actually in process of coming out with a website to provide customers with the information they need, since FileMaker won't. As for the link you provided? Oh what a joke ... and you know and everyone here knows it is a joke. That link is a PR piece.
You say what you wish. And so shall I. But keep your private messages to yourself.
If it squawks like a duck ... no attack, just my perception of where you probably lived. "but I do know that your anger is blinding you to the point where you're trying to shush me from my own opinions by attacking" ... ha ha hahhh!!!!!! It really is time for you to let this go, but I must get clarification on one issue:
Tech Info? Do you mean Knowledge Base? I have clearly already mentioned Knowledge Base and no bugs are listed there and neither are posts from this forum when searching (they have been removed, as I already mentioned).
If you mean TechNet then it costs $99 a year. For new people, I tried searching for Tech Info and TechInfo on the FileMaker site and also googled and can't find a single link. :smileysurprised:
Well, I agree with LaRetta completely.
One issue, which comes to mind is 'grouping of objects causes filemaker to report a corrupt database'
Now.. as a developer, when I get a message stating my DB is corrupt and it shouldn't be used going forward... to me this is serious, it means roll back to a version which does not have this problem and do all of your work again.
However, instead, I spent many hours investigating why FM Pro was telling me 'not to use the file any more'
I made videos, posted info such as xml data, sent sample files and well... we are talking a few days now wasted now.. Just to be informed, that filemaker knew about it a few months previous. (no fault of TSGal's BTW)
So... If I had rolled back my database to about 4 months previous and re-done all of my work, I would have been in the same boat. Never moving forward because... I group objects and align all the time (I remember FM8, 9 or 10's literature which made a big thing about group & align) So potentially, I could have wasted 4 months work and been stuck in a never ending circle of frustration. The recover.log is far from informative....
All it would have taken is a notice somewhere about this issue and they are aware of it.
Now imagine, just how many hours of peoples lives HAVE been wasted by them rolling back because of something which is (in my opinion) a false / incorrect assumption by the recovery tool.
What makes me laugh though, is I have still had to come to my own conclusion, even after spending all of those hours helping to investigate it. There is still no official word and probably never will be.
Now if I find out in 2 years time that, I should not have moved forward and it was in fact the start of something worse, thats my own fault right... except I asked numerous times for clarification with zero response.
Admittedly, I have since ungrouped all the objects and am not getting the same report, but how do I know for sure without the makers of the program letting me know the actual situation behind it.
In regards to bug reports with my own solutions... I welcome them with open arms.. it means I can improve my solution and show my customers that I / We are a company who listen, care and can be trusted.
If we discover something which will have an impact on our clients, then we post it in our bug section, with a status indicator, usually followed by an update within a matter of days.. Our bug reports section is viewable not only by customers but anybody who takes the time to register (due to spam)
Like LaRetta, if something is serious enough, I will stay up 24/7 to fix it just to ensure my customers can go about their business as normal with minimum impact. And my company is nothing compared to FMI, they have a lot more resources and still don't deliver the goods..
A post on tech-talk recently said (and Im not quoting word for word) that why should FM publish bugs, this would be a dream come true for the competition and their marketing departments... Well doesn't that also mean they should delete this forum completely, posts like these are more damaging than a known bug list...Its these kind of posts I would avoid at all costs.. Its these kind of posts that the competition thrives on.
One of filemaker's competition constantly attacks Filemaker in their marketing... why... not because of bugs,
because they can read all these types of messages all over the internet... Its pretty obvious there are a lot of unhappy people, FMI could change that with little effort.
Also... publishing a proper 'fixed bugs' list (not just a selection of marketing material) wouldn't be a bad idea.. I mean, how can you attack the fact that the company is fixing things.. yeah sure, they are admitting they existed in the first place.. but who cares if they are now fixed.
It takes a long time to get a good / trusted reputation... but only a few minutes to get a bad one !
Key words to search for bugs that aren't fixed are : aware, issue
As in "We are aware of this issue, ..."
Oh. Well this should be posted somewhere so people know (like the top of Knowledge Base) instead of buried in a thread on a forum, "People, don't use the word bugs but instead call them issues." Spoken like a true FMI employee (that is, after all, what they are told they must say, per an FMI employee). And I have used the word issue and still can't find information. And they should change the name of this forum to Report An Issue. Get real. :smileytongue:
It may surprise you but I, and many others, have spent thousands of hours on all forums and have been in this business for many years. I didn't just sign up a year ago and begin complaining. I have sent bug reports, letters, pleas ... I have defended FMI vehemently and suggested we 'give them time' to get their act together. And year after year, version after version rolls out, and the bugs increase. Each version brings forward another handful.
This thread started with a plea to add bugs here that FMI finds. Was that a terrible request? And I asked that they improve the 10-page (and growing) Bug List. Shame on me! I will endour those that attack me for standing up for our customers. I see (and have experienced) the agony of being held responsible for bad product even though I've spent hundreds of hours searching for information. When I found out that FMI knew about a bug for YEARS (spontaneous import map, for example) and didn't do a thing about it, not even admit that they couldn't fix it and wouldn't make it public, there simply is no excuse whatsoever. None.
Steve is absolutely right ... it is customer reports on forums (and how they discuss and tweet amongst other designers) which hurts a company the most ... not a posting of their bugs. But again, fix them and FMI won't be so ashamed of their ever-growing serious bug list.
I just read your last post ... Omi182 said, "Someone wise once told me that you can't force people to make changes, you can only change yourself." Oh this is good; getting philosophical and putting the issue back on their customers. This is a business and NOT a person. We are disagreeing with company policy of lack of support, not attacking people. How can changing ourselves fix the bugs? We have done everything customers can do, making their aware of the bugs, posting long countless examples; heck even writing a bug thread for them and assisting other customers.
FMI needs to change; not their customers. :smileywink:
I disagree with discrediting FileMaker as a whole with people like TSGal who are trying to get answers for people, and this is my own opinion. I believe that there is something consumers can do about the situation in all cases and hopefully for the positive.
Someone wise once told me that you can't force people to make changes, you can only change yourself.
I certainly would not discredit any employee of FMI, nor TSGal who does the best they can do within the company policy.
However.. it is the company policy that's causing the issues. I bet 80% of FMI employees would love to be able to communicate better with us, but its against company policy.
Personally, I don't wish to discredit FMI as a company nor there product either, in fact its quite the opposite, I would rather spend my time here helping others and singing the praises, because it IS a good product... otherwise, I wouldn't be here still...
I would much rather be talking my clients in to upgrading to 11, instead I am telling them to stay well clear (for now)
I think what they have done with the screen flicker (although it took them how many years) is a major leap forward on windows they just need to finish the job. I know if they do, I will be purchasing a lot more licences this year.
As for forcing change, its a catch 22 situation. Eventually, if things don't change within FMI then their clients will (exactly as you say you can only change yourself) so in effect... FMI are indirectly forcing us to change because they are slowly adding more and more problems / bugs without resolution. Theres only so far you can go before it becomes bad for your own business.
It has been said a lot on this forum, each release ADDS new bugs into the mix, yes some get fixed but not half as many as need to be.
Somewhere along the lines FMI has lost their way... their priorities are all wrong.
And without their clients voicing their opinions, how would they ever come to realise this.. Hence why a lot of companies do surveys asking their clients what they think of their support / software / any suggestions / improvements etc.
The problem is, without any 2 way communication, these posts are left to escalate, we get angry because we are talking to a brick wall (at no fault of FMI employees but due to policy)
If you have a car which continuously breaks down.. do you (A) Get it repaired, or (B) Get a new set of alloy wheels to make it look better and hope the reliability problems will go away...
Interpreted as :
(a) Fix the bugs...
(b) make a new welcome screen (again) and add a fancy toolbar.
Its a no brainer ! The same applies to anything. Fix what you have, then improve on it if required (or replace it completely which doesn't really apply here)
Anyway... as professional developers (some of us members of the filemaker business alliance and tech-talk) we should be able to get this kind of information somewhere from FMI directly. We depend on it, they depend on us. Without us (their clients)... there would be no FMI. Allowing the bug list to exist is a great start, but missing valuable info, which wastes our time again and again.
There's another load of [add your own interpretation here] from me again :-)
Well, Steve, we are called complainers. But, as inadvertently pointed out by Oki182, "Look how many people complained about Vista, so now they have Windows 7 that's built from the ground up." We are reduced to complaining and begging. We have exhausted all other options.
I don't want to move to another product either. I feel like I'm close to divorce but I still love the person and that makes me very sad. But I must stand behind my designs and FMI is making that impossible. We have volume license agreement or I would never have upgraded to 10 much less 11. For 7 months they didn't fix bugs in vs. 10 - sitting on their website for sale!!! They admit they make a lot of money off of us but they won't do what is right. Search here for post by Mr. Vodka, a last plea for FMI to do what is right. And we don't do enough? Oh, we'll do more, I guarantee ... we'll move on. But I won't do it without a fight.
The second question, people make design mistakes ( user interface with work flow, functional design, etc) or just small mistakes in general (ui button not attached to a script), etc. that has nothing to do with FileMaker bugs. It's human nature. There's other things that can be done as well to improve performance, such as limiting unstored calculations and summaries, making a smaller found set through relations, etc.
So rather than keeping a public tracking record, you work with people directly and try to be as responsive as quick as possible and that helps build trust? And with those short iterations, you do not necessarily have time to have a public database or any of the sort, or due to private use of the database do not necessarily list them in public, and therefore it's like comparing apples to oranges?
That is what paid support is for as well as training and various forums including these. Although many times with novice developers it is indeed a design issue that is not germane to the issue at hand.
Even more so, maybe a solution would be to create a public website with bugs that are searchable, and not just limiting to FileMaker, but perhaps all products, Windows OS, Mac OS, GE products, etc. and label it bugs.com. At least then you can search and hopefully find a work around based on postings and such for the bugs that do exist.
I dont care about about the bugs for other products. I only care about the FileMaker bugs that cause the DEVELOPER their job or reputation without even providing a decent work around.
Ok lets do this. Forget FileMaker for now. Let's just talk about if you built an application with C and sold it to many clients. Clients start calling in, emailing, sending lettters, etc telling you that there are some serious bugs that is wiping out their data and causing them real grief. Would you as the developer of that software keep avoiding their correspondence? Would you send a generic message stating that you confirmed it as a bug and then let is go on for 3-5 years?
You seem to be missing the issue here. We are not asking for the world. We are not asking about bugs that you can live with ( GTRR bug with unknown layout comes to mind ). We are basically begging them to fix the serious issues. How would you run the company? Would you release software every 13-15 months and then charge all your customer for a new upgrade and continue to ignore all bugs that they took the time and made an effort to report to you saying that they were serious? Would you contiue to charge your customers for a support telephone call for a known issue that was reported earlier by another client. IOW, would you fully knowing that you have a confirmed bug still charge all your customers that call in about the same bug? How long would your customers last? How long would your company last?
Ok now lets look at it from the customer side. You just spent hours researching why your data just got wiped out. You dont know better and calling in to their charged phone support. You spend a couple hundred dollars on the phone call. The CSR confirms that it is indeed a bug. You ask when it will be fixed. They state that the development team is aware of it and that no further information is available. 6 Months later you call in a followup. There is still no fix. A year goes by and the same thing. Then after doing your own research, you find out that it was reported 2 years prior to you even reporting it the first time. Now you just spent all that time and money to find out that it was a very long standing issue that they were aware about all along. Do you think that is fair to the customer?
See as opposed to many other software out there FileMaker has one up on many of them. Once a solution is embedded within a company, it take lots of effort to move them to another product. For example, if one hated MS SQL, they could with resonable effort move to another db such as PostgreSQL, Oracle, MySQL, etc. Likewise for the front end / application, one could change from a VB front end, C++, web, etc too. Even within FileMaker's direct competitors such as 4D, Servoy, Alpha 5, Access one could move a lot more easier than FileMaker. Which leads me to my next point. We developers that choose FileMaker as their solution is 100% dependant on FMI. So when there is a serious issue we are at the mercy of their policies.
For years I have done my job to help FMI get customers and spread their word. Along the way I have submitted tons of bugs, enhancements, and posts to help others. Nobody ever said that it had to be perfect nor that the employees there were not doing their jobs. We have been complaining about the business model and policies.
How long does one continue their effort to try to make it work when it seems as though that their business model doesnt seem to care? So you tell me what you think is fair then?
Past posts that I have posted basically begging FMI to change their model.