I believe you can make a separate instance of the table in your relationship graph, then use that instance as the second layout's record table. Haven't tested this but I believe that gets around the issue.
Hi Mike, Is this still using one table, but adding a occurance?. I origanally started off with two tables, but struck hassels with Importing & avoiding having to look into two table to find the contact if they rung up
FileMaker maintains the found set, sort order, and current active record based on table occurrence, not layout.
Using different table occurences for each layout is one solution. Which is still using one table to store the data but two occurences, which act as a view into the table.
Personally, I'd use an OnLayoutEnter script trigger to set the sort.
Hi David, would that mean i would have to apply the layout script trigger to both LIST Layout views? otherwise one list view layout will still effect the other, or am I wrong about this?
Your comments appreciated...Mark
Mark - correct, you would need a script trigger to sort on a per-layout basis.
I would recommend making a single script, and scripting in for each layout you want to auto-sort,
if (get(layoutNumber) = 1 )
Sort layout 1
else if (get(layoutNumber) = 2 )
Sort layout 2
else if (etc....)
Thanks Mike, Question, what happens if a person on one layout caries out there own sort & wants that sort order to remain there if they go out to another layout and come back? Does this script cover this?
Mike would this still apply if they went anywhere on the database & come back to the origanal view?
I have created two seperate LIST VIEW layouts off the one table. Im wanting to sort each layout independant of one another ( One person in One List layout & another person on the other )..
You now have a single table containing TeleM records and also Potential Contacts. And you are using separate tab to hold the fields which are TeleM-related only (as discussed in a prior thread of yours). Some of your Users will work on TeleM and some on Potential Contacts. And now you want to work in list views of these contacts and sort this list and keep the sort layout separate so "One person in One List layout & another person on the other )". The question never asked was why?
If you have two types of USERS who work on different records (some work on TeleM and some work on PotentialCustomers) then you create accounts for your Users (in File > Manage > Security ) and assign them to privilege sets you can name TeleM and Contacts (for example).
Now you know whether the User can work in TeleM or Contacts and you can provide the correct found sets or views as needed. For example, if on form layout, you can use OnRecordLoad trigger to switch to either a TeleM view or a PotentialContact view (if you wish). For viewing lists AND if you have restricted their access properly, TeleM will only find records they should see *anyway. If a TeleM staff only views TeleM records then there is no need to separate them using a sort. BTW, sorts are individual per user viewing at the time. So if a TeleM is viewing a found set of TeleM records and sorts them, their sort does not affect other Users.
So to be sure we are on same page I will ask ... why do you want to sort differently on same layout? Hopefully we are bringing these two threads together since I hadn't had a chance to respond on your prior thread ... I have lots going on at once right now.
Edit: * I had meant to add footnote about protecting from Show All Records, Show Omitted.
Message was edited by: LaRetta
Thanks for your feed- back, I recon we will nail it out..
Your Q . So to be sure we are on same page I will ask ... why do you want to sort differently on same layout?
Just BTW, sorts is all I was referring too.
Your Q. You now have a single table containing TeleM records and also Potential Contacts – It’s the same record but identified differently by 1) Layout & 2) a pop up menu field ( using a value List )
So there’s only one record with one record ID, which is being staged ( identified to either the TeleM or the next person ) by the pop up menu selection.Field. ie: Telemarketer - DeadTM - Committed Record TM
When I click on the TeleMarket button in the main Menu it takes me to a teleM list view layout & I change the Status ( List heading ) pop up menu from telemarketer to Committed Record TM & then click the Contacts menu button to go to the main CONTACTS Form view it now reads Committed Record TM. This tells the next person to follow through with the enquiry & send the required info found in the TeleM Tab below, ( The TeleM tab on the CONTACTS Form view has the same fields as the TeleMarketer layout only that requests information to be emailed or sent out )
If The CONTACTS pop up says TeleMarketer, then all users know its being dealt with the Telemarketer person, being stage one of the process. The beauty of this is if the 2 follow up person in the CONTACTS form layout wants to give the record back to the telemarketer they can by just changing the popup menu back to telemarketer.
Your Q If a TeleM staff only views TeleM records then there is no need to separate them using a sort.
Just a sort to pull in & find the new Telemarketer imported records. could be done using a layout trigger to sort/ find the TeleM identified records to work on.
So if this being the case, in the pop up menu selection the TeleMarketer would need to have the ability to select DEAD TM & COMMITTED RECORD TM. IF the TeleMarketer selects either of these two options they should not be able to see that record again. ( it would need to Automatically disappear from there list ). LaRetta, how would it disappear from the TeleM listview… if you make a change in the teleM List view using the status pop up (value list )from TeleMarketer TM to say.. DEAD TM it currently goes to the bottom of the list, once the action has been committed.
Would Creating separate accounts through File-Manage- security still work as you suggest given my comments..
When TeleMarket signs into your file and clicks 'Telemarketing', that script should find only Telemarketing records. This is the script David mentions OnLayoutEnter which can find only TeleMarketing records and then sort them however you wish (oldest first?), displaying the final set on list layout and placing the User on the first record to begin work.
LaRetta, how would it disappear from the TeleM listview… if you make a change in the teleM List view using the status pop up (value list )from TeleMarketer TM to say.. DEAD TM it currently goes to the bottom of the list, once the action has been committed.
When a Telemarketer is working with a set of records with Status = TeleMarketer, it can disappear (from THEIR current list layout) when they change the status to anything other than TeleMarketer by using script trigger OnObjectModify on the pop-up. The script you write could look like this:
If [ Contacts::Status ≠ "TeleMarketer" ]
This will make the 'committed' record disappear, put the Telemarketer on the next record in the list (even if the list is sorted). If the TeleMarket wants to see any records which might have been changed back to TeleMarketer (but are not in their current found set), they would only need to run a single script step of:
Extend Found Set [ Restore ; Contacts::Status = [ TeleMarketer ] ]
Would Creating separate accounts through File-Manage- security still work as you suggest given my comments..
Yes, you need to incorporate Security if it is important that Telemarketers don't change (or even view?) the rest of your solution. Security is the only way to ensure that the rules you establish are upheld. And you must use Security to keep Users from going into your Define Fields, for example ...
Security: Create Accounts for your Users and assign them to Privilege Sets
Admin - full rights to everything. Usually only the developer and owner
Manager - those folks allowed to do manager things such as approvals, overrides (you can define them very specifically for your needs)
Office - in this case it would be those staff who are known usually as [data entry] and they would be the ones who worked with the records 'moving them on'
TeleM - those staff who should be restricted to only their records (Source = TeleMarketer) for example.
Now that you can identify your Users when they log in, you can use that information to identify how each 'privilege set' needs to work (from User perspective). So if you know the person is Office, you can show them all records. And if they are changing the status of a contact from TeleMarketer to Commit, maybe you don't want it to disappear on THEIR view. If privileges are in place, your tests can branch accordingly or in this case it might be simply:
If [ Contacts::Status ≠ "TeleMarketer" and Get ( AccountPrivilegeSetName ) = TeleM ]
Security can take this further and keep records they are not authorized to see from even appearing in their found sets (finds only).
I am just about sorted..
From your experiance as far as security is concerned, Would you see it just as good to allow the teleMarketer, ( through a Privilage set ) to have access to the TeleM layouts only, with the LIstview layout triggered to find all teleMarketer records only... then with a value drop list to allow the telemarketer to change the TeleM record to a Dead File ( Inactive record ) as in list view thats all they would need to do tghose 2 options.
However in form view the a new value list would allow the telemarketer to change the record to Committ Record or Dead Record or back to Telemarketer (3 options) . Im thinking this as I only want the telem to committ the record in form view as its in form view that the TM has to fill out the INFORMATION required.. Check boxes etc ......
In form view however I dont want the TM to carry out a find on all committed records...in fact the TM dosnt need to search using this drop down value list at all....so would i be best to just uncheck the ability to carry out a find in this field using the inspector?
PS: I have just realised that if the TM carries out a search in say..the name field, it will bring up the COMMITTED records that are asociated to that name. In thinking about it its not such a big deal if the TM acn search all the TM records because if new CONTACTS have been created not using the TM will be controlled, staged by another independant field.
your thoughts... appreciated
Mark asked, "In form view however I dont want the TM to carry out a find on all committed records...in fact the TM dosnt need to search using this drop down value list at all....so would i be best to just uncheck the ability to carry out a find in this field using the inspector?"
I do not know whether you plan to show the status bar or use custom menu and without knowing the exact functionality of the layout, usage, Users and defined Security, I can only provide generalities but the following should give you a deeper understanding:
1. Security is the only guaranteed protection. If your TeleM privilege set is to disallow committed records for them, committed records will NOT be found when you search for ANY records on any layouts. It is your first line of defense. Use it heavily for everything that matters.
2. Custom Menu should be established to tightly control use of Show Omitted, Constrain and Extend as they do NOT filter down to the privileged set. And different Custom Menus can be used for different privileges, different layouts, Users - any Boolean test.
3. I suggest you hide (and potentially lock) Status Bar only showing it possibly during report previews and access to the PDF and print icons. You will need to then create your own navigation.
4. Field-level validation is used mostly to validate data being entered; who is editing isn't usually controlled there. Please remember I am speaking generalities and norms - many times there are exceptions to each situation.
5. Field control (behavior) is cheap, dependable and easy - disallowing entry in Browse or Find (as you've discovered) is also an 'all or nothing' approach; no conditional tests can be applied (such as checking privilege set). Also at this layout level, you can utilize hidden tab panels or disappearing portals and, via script, restrict User access.
6. Script triggers can guide Users as they move through layouts and fields by warning Users before Security is violated and provide nice experience as well as doing some of the work for them or for you. These fields will be on many layouts and you need to consider whether you want to remember to always add the field control or trigger or whether it is safer to let Security give you the piece of mind.
The simpler the solution the more dependable. Turning off Find ability on a pop-up is simple and trustworthy and I would do that first if it achieves the desired result (5 above). But if some Users can find in the pop-up then you will need to leave Find checked and instead use trigger. But if you use Custom Menu you can set it up so that there is no Find menu items for TeleM so they couldn't find on that layout anyway because removing those options from Custom Menu also removes the keyboard shortcuts to them.
And to take it further, you can provide dedicated find layouts and prohibit searching data-entry layouts. Why? Three reasons, 1) Users forget they are in Find Mode and type real data and then don't understand when their information didn't stick, 2) Users in Browse think they are in Find when not and they change real data and most importantly 3) Users can accidentally search aggregate calculations which will not only bring them to almost standstill but also slow everyone else on network. You can provide visual (large text word FIND or color the background) to help them differentiate. And you can also turn off ability to find on those aggregates as well (#5).
The fact that there are always many approaches with FM is one thing that keeps this business exciting but it can also be maddening trying to decide the best route. Welcome to our wonderful insanity. :-)
All your comments are well appreciated and note worthy..
I would like to thank you for your time to answer my questions.. Yes Im understanding that there are several ways to do things in FM and it would seem different people take different approaches.
Im just a beginner, but really enjoy the creativity of design & the different methods to achieve a desired outcome.
LaRetta, what would be the best accounting software to intergrate into FileMaker.. I have looked up different ones, but want the best that will work smoothly..have you had much to do with this?
Many Thanks Mark
I have not purchased nor tested other accounting programs so others would need to recommend; in fact if you search it seems there was a thread no more than few weeks back on same subject.
I wish you the best with your project. :-)